Required Vet Hours for Admissions

[pyruvatekinase]

Hi All,

I''m planning on applying in the upcoming admission cycle and I was wondering how many hours successful applicants had when they got in? I know there isn't a set requirement but I was hoping to get some idea of how many I ought to aim for. By the time I'm applying, I'll have ~750 vet hours (small animal and foal watch), ~100 non-vet large animal hours and a good amount of non-animal related work but it seems pretty common for people to apply with way more hours so I'm a little worried to say the least. Honestly any help would be appreciated because I don't want my application tossed out after I've put so much time into getting a reasonably strong admission average.

[abcde]

Hey!

From what I understand, admitted students have a huge range of experience, and as long as your experience is A) diverse and B) high-quality, you should be good. I was admitted this year with ~680 vet hours (small animal with a little bit of exotics and large animal) and a few thousand non-vet hours (mostly birds, some horse), but I know of people who have been admitted in the past with fewer hours than that, and others with more. The committee really wants to see that you've explored the profession and know what's out there, so I think anything you can do to add diversity to your application is great! For instance, even though the vast majority of my vet hours were small animal, I made them diverse by volunteering in a variety of settings (general practice, emergency, rehab/fitness, etc.). So, without knowing anything about your experience (and having no insider info on what OVC considers sufficient experience anyway), I think rather than focusing on getting "more" hours, it might be more beneficial to increase the diversity of your experience, even if you don't add a ton more hours to your application by doing that! I know lots of people (including me) had single-day experiences on their applications, and those can be really great for helping you learn about the profession.

[lowenger]

Pyruvatekinase how is Foal Watch veterinary experience? I don't think you work directly with a veterinarian for all the time you are there.

[pyruvatekinase]

Hi Lowenger! I actually wasn't 100% sure what to classify Foal Watch as but if it is more suitable to put it under animal experience, I'll make sure to do that on my BIF.

[pyruvatekinase]

abcde Thanks for the tips! I've searched around my area quite a bit and I'm fairly certain that all the clinics within a reasonable driving distance are small animal general practices but I suppose its worth looking into again.

[bleepblop]

pyruvatekinase,

It doesn't always have to be specialized veterinary experience, if that isn't feasible for your situation! I got in this year with ~260 hours in small animal, but had ~120 hours in research animal (it went under my "Animal Experience" since it wasn't under veterinary supervision) on top of animal experience at a humane society. I think just exploring fields that involve animals (and their care), as well as diversifying your activities improves your application. It's also important to note that your extracurriculars don't actually have a numerical value when OVC assesses you (the breakdown is 65% your marks, 35% your interview score), so the chances of admission rely heavily on academics.

Let me know if you have any questions!

[Guest1234]

Hey there,

Quality over quantity. I know some people have thousands of hours per experience, but honestly all my experiences were under 150 hours, but I had a very wide range of experience with birds, lab animals, farm animals, and small (3 vets and the rest just animal experience) and got in. That was with a total of around 1000 animal hours. I just really made the most of the time I did have and that helped me know how to tackle the MMI questions.

You got this!

[NoClucksGiven]

At the risk of sounding harsh, reading these answers make me sad for the future of this profession. Over the past 10 yrs I’ve accumulated 12 000 veterinary hours and about 10 000 animal hours. I can truly say it wasn’t until I worked three years in the trenches of overnight ER that I gained a true understanding of not only what it takes to be a veterinarian but to be a GOOD veterinarian, and believe me, there is a huge difference between the two. Frankly, if you’re not willing to put yourself out there and log the hours, you should not be a vet. This is a HARD profession and I don’t think the majority of applicants realize what they’re getting themselves into when they apply. Honestly, if I were in charge of admissions, grades would play a far less significant role and I would develop a scoring system for references and experience. Once you get an interview, the other portion of the application no longer counts and it strictly becomes your gift of gab and that gets you in. It’s become far to easy to “fake” good grades by strategizing the courses and then you get students having to repeat 1st year because they just can’t handle the work load. I work directly with the students and there is a good 30% of them that look like they’re going to implode from stress when you talk to them.

Sorry to sound like a complete witch but I live and breathe this profession. Go out and get your hands and boots dirty, ask questions, talk to clients, sit with a recovering animal because at the end of the day, it’s not what you learn in class, it’s you’re experiences that will shape you into becoming a GREAT veterinarian.

[thingyadoodledoo]

@noclucksgiven you sound like a sour vet assistant or technician whose got beef with the GPA required to get in. I could not disagree with your criticism more.
To put it your way: Frankly, if you're not willing to put yourself out there, working your tail off to PROVE to OVC that you can handle the academics of their program, you don't want it bad enough.

If it's so easy to "fake" good grades, why are you not a veterinarian? You've got lots of experience!

Also, the majority of admitted applicants in third year undergrad are 20-21 years of age. They have LOTS of time to find their niche with such a versatile degree. Someone who doesn't like clinical medicine may well succeed in research or epidemiology. Being a "good vet" is HUGELY dependent on what you're doing in the field. Canada's top pathologist is probably a sub-par avian ophthalmologist. Thankfully, there are many many fields for vets to explore.
Your reported 22000 hours would be totally impossible for the average university-age applicant, and I wonder what your hours would be over three-four years if you had to put two (three, really) into full-time undergraduate studies. Additionally, do you have any idea how hard it is for urban Toronto students to get volunteer positions in food animal medicine, equine, or other rural practice?

I'm sorry you have such a terrible view of the profession and have such little faith in OVC's students. The program is designed to push you to teach you as much as possible over four years. 30% imploding from stress is not surprising and I'll bet you find similar (or worse) statistics at ANY medical school in Canada. Does that mean Queen's or McMaster are also doing it wrong? Their academics are brutal too and guess what, they're also top of the list globally. The reality is, OVC is a top school for a reason. Their veterinary students the tools to be exceptional, but ultimately it's up to the individual to figure out what to do with them.

[lol]

Jun 7, 2018 11:35:39 GMT -5 thingyadoodledoo said:

@noclucksgiven you sound like a sour vet assistant or technician whose got beef with the GPA required to get in. I could not disagree with your criticism more.
To put it your way: Frankly, if you're not willing to put yourself out there, working your tail off to PROVE to OVC that you can handle the academics of their program, you don't want it bad enough.

If it's so easy to "fake" good grades, why are you not a veterinarian? You've got lots of experience!

Also, the majority of admitted applicants in third year undergrad are 20-21 years of age. They have LOTS of time to find their niche with such a versatile degree. Someone who doesn't like clinical medicine may well succeed in research or epidemiology. Being a "good vet" is HUGELY dependent on what you're doing in the field. Canada's top pathologist is probably a sub-par avian ophthalmologist. Thankfully, there are many many fields for vets to explore.
Your reported 22000 hours would be totally impossible for the average university-age applicant, and I wonder what your hours would be over three-four years if you had to put two (three, really) into full-time undergraduate studies. Additionally, do you have any idea how hard it is for urban Toronto students to get volunteer positions in food animal medicine, equine, or other rural practice?

I'm sorry you have such a terrible view of the profession and have such little faith in OVC's students. The program is designed to push you to teach you as much as possible over four years. 30% imploding from stress is not surprising and I'll bet you find similar (or worse) statistics at ANY medical school in Canada. Does that mean Queen's or McMaster are also doing it wrong? Their academics are brutal too and guess what, they're also top of the list globally. The reality is, OVC is a top school for a reason. Their veterinary students the tools to be exceptional, but ultimately it's up to the individual to figure out what to do with them.

AGREED, thingyadoodledoo!

[FowlTalk]

Jun 7, 2018 11:35:39 GMT -5 thingyadoodledoo said:

@noclucksgiven you sound like a sour vet assistant or technician whose got beef with the GPA required to get in. I could not disagree with your criticism more.
To put it your way: Frankly, if you're not willing to put yourself out there, working your tail off to PROVE to OVC that you can handle the academics of their program, you don't want it bad enough.

If it's so easy to "fake" good grades, why are you not a veterinarian? You've got lots of experience!

Also, the majority of admitted applicants in third year undergrad are 20-21 years of age. They have LOTS of time to find their niche with such a versatile degree. Someone who doesn't like clinical medicine may well succeed in research or epidemiology. Being a "good vet" is HUGELY dependent on what you're doing in the field. Canada's top pathologist is probably a sub-par avian ophthalmologist. Thankfully, there are many many fields for vets to explore.
Your reported 22000 hours would be totally impossible for the average university-age applicant, and I wonder what your hours would be over three-four years if you had to put two (three, really) into full-time undergraduate studies. Additionally, do you have any idea how hard it is for urban Toronto students to get volunteer positions in food animal medicine, equine, or other rural practice?

I'm sorry you have such a terrible view of the profession and have such little faith in OVC's students. The program is designed to push you to teach you as much as possible over four years. 30% imploding from stress is not surprising and I'll bet you find similar (or worse) statistics at ANY medical school in Canada. Does that mean Queen's or McMaster are also doing it wrong? Their academics are brutal too and guess what, they're also top of the list globally. The reality is, OVC is a top school for a reason. Their veterinary students the tools to be exceptional, but ultimately it's up to the individual to figure out what to do with them.

Actually, I am a current OVC student who, to some degree, agrees with @noclucksgiven. I don't think it's fair to throw around the accusation of bitterness without knowing their circumstances, especially given the truth in their statements.

There is a HUGE problem with the weight given to grades over arguably more important indicators such as experience, references, writing/communication, and yes, interview. I think these aspects are FAR more relevant to determining not only who can "handle the academic program", which is the weak defense given for relying so heavily on grades (we all know it's because it saves time and money, and because there is desperation just finding enough people willing to help select suitable candidates), but also who will truly best represent the profession.

Forgive my 'sourness', if you will, but an interest in research is not an acceptable excuse for poor people skills/communication in DVM students. If someone really wants to have 'Dr.' in front of their name, and spend their life in a lab or with a single topic, they can get their Phd elsewhere, leaving the spots for the passionate practitioners.

As an OVC student, I'm also going to have to disagree with the claim that the program is designed to teach you as much as possible in four short years. Certainly, a versatile profession like veterinary medicine has far more to be learned than can be absorbed in 4 short years. However, the focus on certain things, and the absurd evaluation methods by many profs, undermines the typically stellar work done by knowledgeable and passionate professors. I was under the impression that the stress the original poster referred to was not academic stress, but difficulty handling conflict resolution, fast-paced working environments, etc. A classroom is not an ER, surgery table with a dying patient, or clinician speaking to a hostile client.

FINALLY, and this is a big one, OVC is not rated as wonderfully as they like to advertise. They may be seventh overall, but if you actually look at the rankings, they are 35/50 in employer satisfaction (score = 60.2%). I think that speaks volumes.

Say what you will, but @noclucks has some very valid points, emotion notwithstanding.

[jackalth]

Grades aren't simply a number, though. And you can't "fake" a good GPA. Many people with grades in the 90s don't get in because they lack the experience or communication skills necessary when it comes to the interview process. Yes the grades are a big factor, but there's more to it than a number. Someone who can achieve high grades while volunteering or working shows a certain level of dedication, resilience, time magangement, etc... A lot of important skills to being a veterinarian.

Also a DVM isn't just for practitioners.

[Guest1234]

Jun 6, 2018 17:40:27 GMT -5 NoClucksGiven said:

At the risk of sounding harsh, reading these answers make me sad for the future of this profession. Over the past 10 yrs I’ve accumulated 12 000 veterinary hours and about 10 000 animal hours. I can truly say it wasn’t until I worked three years in the trenches of overnight ER that I gained a true understanding of not only what it takes to be a veterinarian but to be a GOOD veterinarian, and believe me, there is a huge difference between the two. Frankly, if you’re not willing to put yourself out there and log the hours, you should not be a vet. This is a HARD profession and I don’t think the majority of applicants realize what they’re getting themselves into when they apply. Honestly, if I were in charge of admissions, grades would play a far less significant role and I would develop a scoring system for references and experience. Once you get an interview, the other portion of the application no longer counts and it strictly becomes your gift of gab and that gets you in. It’s become far to easy to “fake” good grades by strategizing the courses and then you get students having to repeat 1st year because they just can’t handle the work load. I work directly with the students and there is a good 30% of them that look like they’re going to implode from stress when you talk to them.

Sorry to sound like a complete witch but I live and breathe this profession. Go out and get your hands and boots dirty, ask questions, talk to clients, sit with a recovering animal because at the end of the day, it’s not what you learn in class, it’s you’re experiences that will shape you into becoming a GREAT veterinarian. 

Like I said quality over quantity. Don't devalue or discredit my experience or others because our hours don't add up to yours. I decided to be a vet later in the game than most so no I don't have 12 000 hours, but that does not mean I am any less passionate or qualified for the job. I took the time to go to different places I volunteered at an aviary, worked with lab animals, and in a slaughterhouse, so yes I do have some idea of what it takes to be a good vet, and I have gotten my hands pretty d**n dirty. Sorry I have good grades and rocked my interview! Good luck to you!

[thingyadoodledoo]

Guest1234, you don't need to justify yourself to anyone here. You proved it to yourself and the College and that's all that matters.

FowlTalk, you do sound sour. I'm also a current OVC student and I hope I don't end up sounding like you by the end of the program.
I disagree with your perspective that weighting undergraduate marks so heavily is an issue. I was reluctant to do my BSc in Canada (due to a similar perspective) and once pitched the idea of going abroad to a combo "pre-vet/vet program" to a vet mentor of mine, and I received the following uncomfortable advice which I still hold true today.

Undergraduate marks are important because understanding the fundamental sciences is CRITICAL to avoid practicing "cookbook medicine," and to give you some direction when you deviate from the every day, well-documented duties of a vet. For example, radiation/particle physics from PHYS1080 are especially relevant to radiology, Introductory biochemistry is self-explanatory, statistics is critical for interpreting research, and the list goes on and on. These "useless subjects" are actually very important to the veterinarian who wishes to think independently and practice confidently in the face of uncertainty. Additionally, a heavy course load teaches you how to learn, which, IMO, is equally important. The outrageously high admission average is, in my view, also a good thing because it forces students to work exceptionally hard, enhancing their learning but also demonstrating their drive and determination to become a vet.
The aforementioned points are hardly useless and I'm glad they are considered with such weight by admissions.

Additionally, your statement about a career in research being unbecoming of a DVM is shocking and demonstrates a gross lack of appreciation on your behalf. I suspect you will change your tune if you ever require treatment for a disease which was founded in veterinary medicine. If I want to take my vet degree and sit and look at cancer cells under a microscope for 25 years hoping I'll get lucky, that's my prerogative and may well benefit human or animal health more than any career in clinical practice could. I am thankful for those vets working on cancer treatments (etc.) and you should be too.

I wonder how many of our peers would agree with you that the DVM program doesn't cram in enough content in a semester. Sure, they cant teach you everything in four years but I question how many students could cope with an even greater workload.

In my undergrad years I thought many of the evaluation methods were "absurd" as well. The reality is, I did not always appreciate the reasons behind them (and in some cases, still don't) but acknowledge that my approval of the method is not predictive of it's value or success. More relevant markers like student employment rates after graduation, mean earnings for a new grad, and international respect for OVC's reputation hold more water for me, and they are all positively associated with our DVM program, and the admissions process associated with it. In short, they are doing something right and I am thankful for those opportunities.

Here's the reality for me: a good applicant needs to be academically successful (and there is no amount of overqualification here), somewhat experienced (explore the profession but don't put the cart before the horse), possess good interpersonal skills and self-care, and be driven to succeed and make a difference. With those attributes, I truly believe any candidate would be successful in one aspect of veterinary medicine or another.

And just to cap this off - I have taught courses in unrelated subjects for years and you know which students are almost consistently problematic (interpersonal conflict, poor attitude towards authority or teaching methods etc.) when taking the course? The ones who have lots of experience already.

I have no doubt that @noclucksgiven would have benefitted equally (maybe more) from 22000 hours of clinical experience while licensed as a DVM, too. I simply don't believe those numbers are necessary to determine whether or not you're cut out for OVC's program, and I'm glad the College seems to share that perspective.

[happyvet]

Today marks my second year into general practice after OVC. Out of pure nostalgia/PTSD of applying to vet school, I decided to visit this site. I agree and disagree on certain points in this thread. Here is my take on the admission process and more specifically about the number of vet hours. Take it or leave it! Here is my story:
If I had to guess, I probably have the least number of hours spent in clinical practice in my entire class and Z-E-R-O large animal experience. Yes, it did hurt me during the application process, but the rest of my application was strong enough and thankfully I got in on the first try. And no, I am not one of the people you are referring to that sit in a lab and cannot talk to owners on a personal basis. I am quite the opposite. Did I have so little experience because I am not dedicated to this profession? Absolutely not. I had personal and health issues that prevented me from being a pre-vet superwoman. The best I could do as someone with major health/personal challenges was to maintain my 90% GPA, while working in the lab (vet related) and volunteering once a week in a small animal practice. I put everything else on hold for 2 years of my life. Hey, sure others dedicate more and unfortunately do not get in but it is an extremely competitive program, and OVC is looking for someone what meets THEIR criteria, not the world's most who can log more hours/be the winner of a super vet assistant olympics.

In OVC's perspective, they are looking for academically driven individuals with a passion for vet world with a strong moral/ethical compass. It's not an easy thing to weed out, some wrong individuals may get the spots over more qualified individuals. At the same time they need some standardizing system to make sure it is a fair process (or as fair as possible). My interpretation of the reason why OVC mandates candidates to have 2 strong veterinary references is not for people to log 10,000 hours, but for these potential candidates KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GETTING INTO! And the rest, they will mold you into the vet that they want to graduate. Do I agree with all of the policies and the curriculum? NO. Do I think the admission process is extremely competitive and sometimes weeds out the right people? YES. But there needs to be some systematic approach. I think they do a decent job overall and even if things were to change, there will never be some perfect system.

At the end of the day, they are looking for people that have the stamina to endure 7-8 years of post secondary training of which in last 4 years, you can put in 30+ hours of in class learning and equivalent 30+ hours in self-directed learning. They are looking for candidates that can keep up with the material with 119 other students sitting in the classroom that are capable of marathon learning for 50-70 hrs per week and sitting through 9 hour exams like the three part POD finals (pathology, second year vet school killer course) + passing the licensing exam at the end that is nearly 7 hours to get to practice medicine. Does this process make the best vets? That is debatable as there are so many different ways to be a good vet. This is a very versatile field. But to be a OVC survivor, that is what they are looking for - people who have the brains and endurance to sit their butts down through these classes and exams. It is a TOUGH TOUGH program. They were the best and the worst years of my life - it was bittersweet when it was over. And I am certain I don't think my body and brain can go through it again.

Fast forward to what kind of vet/person I have become:
I have zero regrets that I did this, I am extremely extremely grateful that I had been accepted to this very prestigious program. I am always excited to go to work, I cannot ask for a better profession and have extreme high job satisfaction. I practice in an AHAA accredited hospital, practicing excellent level of medicine with an amazing team. Everyone has their role and every single one is important from my bosses, manager, technicians, assistants to receptionist. Think of it like a sports team. And as harsh as it sounds, not everyone is meant to have Dr. in front of their name - and do not take it as my lack of respect for my other team members. Everyone is valued for what they bring, but not everyone is supposed to be the brains behind the operation. It is like how you can't have 32 quarterbacks on a team. Sure, if I logged 10,000 vet assistant hours, I could have been a better restrainer and annoy my techs less when I ie. leave the IV line too taut with hospitalized patients and have them say I make "doctor mistakes". Sure, I can hit some jugulars for blood draw but I am not nearly as magical as my nurses. But what my team appreciates is that when it comes to doctor things, they can count on me. When there is a code blue, I am there, ready to go. OVC is trying to find "quarterbacks" of the veterinary team, and in their perspective, these are the criteria they are using to scout their superstars. They graduate us and hope that we integrate into our prospective vet teams as the leader of that team.

TL;DR - vet hour requirement is just a number. Once you get into OVC, you can get enough experiences while you are in vet school. You guarantee you will have much better quality of experience once you become a vet student and you are given more responsibilities. You will get there once you get in. And the point is to get in, and to get in you gotta play the game! And most importantly, there is no I in TEAM - respect for everyone on the vet staff. This is a heart-wrenching, intellectually challenging and extremely fun field. Best of luck, everyone!

P.S. And don't be discouraged if this is your passion and you don't get Dr. In front of your name, there are so many different ways to be part of this world.

[Refreshing]

Thank you, happyvet.
Your perspective is refreshing and educational. Sure, vet med is tough, but I dont know why most people hate on it the way they do. It may not be what everyone expects it to be, but its still a remarkable opportunity to make a difference in the world and that’s worth every second of studying, volunteering, and working your butt off to get there.