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Post by Guest113196 on Jul 3, 2013 15:42:04 GMT -5
For all the unsuccessful applicants who struggled with the interview process or have yet to participate in the MMI this is my advice...
1) The Rollins book is invaluable. These scenarios teach you how to think about the cases that you will be presented with.
2) The CVMA and OVMA position statements are very important. Cases will come up in regards to these "hot topics" and you can use the position statements to your advantage in where the Veterinary Community stands (Dreizehn points this out very well in his multiple posts). These statements are easily found on both websites...
3) Attending the Mock MMI at Guelph is very important, especially for someone who hasnt participated in this type of interview before. The mock interview is set up EXACTLY like the real deal and IMHO you are at a disadvantage if you cannot attend!
Don't be discouraged about your interview scores! If the academic part of your application is average to above average and you have enough experience then the interview is something you can definitely improve upon! Just practice well before you are given the interview invite and you should do great!!
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Post by guest01 on Jul 3, 2013 16:59:16 GMT -5
This year was my first time applying, was offered an interview but, unfortunately I did not get accepted. I was thinking whether I should rewrite my MCAT. Starting this year the new MCAT eliminated the writing section so I'm not sure how they would determine the highest MCAT score. My question is should I write the MCAT again? Does anyone know if they will still look at the writing score from the old MCATs or just completely ignore the writing component from now on? Or how would it work?
My VR was the lowest, my other sections were decent and a pretty good letter score for the writing. I feel like if they do not look at the writing anymore, it will be a disadvantage to me.
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Post by ovc2017 on Jul 3, 2013 19:26:12 GMT -5
If you had the marks and the MCAT score to get an interview this year I would think that they are fine. Perhaps you would be better off improving your interview skills?
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Post by Guest1620 on Jul 4, 2013 19:20:52 GMT -5
I was admitted this year (first attempt).
Last two terms: 84.1% (allowed to use my honours thesis course, 1.5 credits) Prerequisites: 81.8% MCAT: 30R Interview: 78
Looking at the overall stats from the last few years, it's likely my MCAT score that helped me gain admission. Every other grade/score was a little low.
I would assume that I had pretty average experience, relative to the other applicants... I volunteered at a wildlife centre during my masters, then bit the bullet and made practically no money working in an emerg vet clinic for a year. After that I quit my job and studied full-time for the MCAT (went on OSAP interest relief the whole time). Got a decent paying job and coasted through volunteering (at the emerg. clinic and on a farm) until the interviews came up. However, I have worked in about 5 laboratories, from the time that I was about 16. I'm still attracted to research, which I mentioned in the MMIs and my statement.
I didn't study for the interview beyond reading about 10 scenarios in the Rollins book (planned to do more, but work was busy that week). With a 78, I probably just squeaked by... The only prep/studies that really helped me were probably the philosophy courses that I took during undergrad and the defence of my thesis, which is arguably worse than the MMIs.
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Post by dreizehn on Jul 5, 2013 7:42:05 GMT -5
Thank you so much for posting your stats JayBG and Guest11111111, congrats to both of you on being accepted!!!! And thank you to dreizehn for always being helpful in this forum. This was my second time applying, and I was unsuccessful again this year. I've been bouncing all over the place trying to figure out what to fix and how to fix it. Last year my grades were on the low end and my MCAT was bad, so I rewrote my MCAT and my marks improved on finishing my 4th year. This year my last 2 semesters gave me an average 84.3, and my prereqs were 85.0. MCAT was 26M (which now I'm wondering what happens with the writing sample since mine sucked but if I rewrite again there is no writing). Interview this year was 71.6, however last year I was much more nervous and not as effective with my answers (so I thought) but got a score of 76. I finished my degree in April 2012, and since then I have been working as an assistant for an equine vet (where I am the only person working for the vet most of the time). I have had an amazing experience this past year, but I want to make sure in this next year I do what I need to do in order to get accepted. So if anyone has any input here at all I would greatly appreciate it! I am debating between taking another semester and maybe increasing my marks by 1-2% (possibly making a difference like dreizehn said), or stay working and just focus on more intense interview prep (not sure if there are courses to take for MMIs, the DVD JayBG mentioned sounds like a good idea though). Again any input at all would be awesome! Thanks! ;D I know I've mentioned it semi-frequently already, but I'm going to talk about the posted class statistics and my spreadsheet again ( docs.google.com/file/d/0B08j-U1CX9S9M09UU1ZxNUJkZGc/edit?usp=sharing), because I honestly think a lot of information invaluable to the decision making process can be found in there. With all the posting of stats for successful and unsuccessful applicants for the sake of comparison, I think it's especially pertinent to take a look at the column for the calculated " Final Admissions Score (overall grades + MCAT + interview)," on the second tab in column AG as it provides a simple and meaningful means of comparing everything (while I can't guarantee this is exactly how admissions makes their calculation, it does follow all the information publicly available on the admissions web site). Also note that the same " Final Admissions Score" for individual users themselves (who have inputted their values into the yellow cells) is calculated on the first tab in cell D14. Excepting this most recent cycle (class of 2017) since their stats are not yet posted, over the past six years the final score for admitted students has averaged 80.74. Looking into it a bit further, one notes that the average interview score pre-MMI format was a decent bit higher at about 87.5%, while in the past three years with the MMIs it has averaged lower at about 75%; thus, a more representative average value for the final calculated score being currently considered is just for the past three years, for which it is 79.39. Now, while it's quite likely not wholly or exactly representative of the current cycle, just for the sake of it let's also look at all the people who have posted their stats to this thread itself so far, which yields the following final scores: Admitted:
83.87 (Guest1991) 80.98 (Guest11111111, second application) 80.84 (Guest2445) 80.54 (Visitor) 79.95 (Guest1990) 79.67 (JayBG, second application) 79.64 (Guest1620) 77.02 (Guest876, second application)Average = 80.31 Take special note of the score of Guest876, who stated he/she was admitted only after someone else declined their offer and, thus, localizes the cutoff for this past cycle at approximately 77.02.
NOT Admitted:
76.07 (Guest061) 74.90 (Guest876, first application) 74.56 (JayBG, first application) 73.28 (Guest11111111, first application)Average = 74.70 Now, since Guest061 was the originator of the question, I'm going to run through his/her stats as an example of how this can be further applied beyond merely a comparison, to actually determining the approximate amount of improvement necessary in each category: The cutoff for this year (class of 2017), as identified above, was approximately 77.02.
Guest061 had a score of 76.07. As such, he/she was just a little low but quite close to admission, which I think explains some of the confusion as to what should be the focus for improvement. Honestly, when I first looked at Guest061's scores I too was initially somewhat surprised, as at first impression they come across as being approximately in the right areas for being admitted. If you input them into the spreadsheet though, what is seen is that each of the categories is slightly below the average for admitted students, and it is thus the combination of these that brings the overall score below that required for admission. Compared to the average values for the last three years of admitted classes, Guest061's values compare as follows:- Overall grades are ~1-2% lower
- MCAT overall is ~1% lower
- Interview score is ~3% lower
Thereby bringing the overall final admissions score to a little more than 4% below that of the average for admitted students over the past three years.
Now, what changes would have, in all likelihood, gotten Guest061 admitted this year? All other things remaining the same, any ONE of the following improvements in isolation would likely have resulted in admission in this past cycle (i.e., a final admission score above the cutoff of approximately 77.02, as established above):- Grades: An overall increase of 2% on the combined average for both categories (i.e., a total increase of ~4% in either category or distributed in some way between the two (e.g., raise the prerequisite score by 4%; or raise the prerequisite score by 2% and also the semesters score by 2%,...)).
Resulting final admission score = 77.11
- MCAT: Improving from an "M" to a "Q" on the writing section (though this is somewhat irrelevant now since the writing section is no more. Though this may benefit you to some degree if they no longer consider the writing section, as it alone decreased your final admission score by 1.08 points). Alternatively, an increase of a total of 5 points over the three other categories (i.e., from 26 to 31).
Resulting final admission score = 77.15
- Interview: An increase of 3 points (i.e., to ~74.6 from the actual of 71.6)
Resulting final admission score = 77.12
So, working from this and knowing approximately what type of improvement would be necessary in each section, you would have to determine in which section you are most capable of the necessary improvement. Also keep in mind that the above values are just minimums for improvement and are based on this cycle's approximate cutoff value only, so realistically you should improve a decent bit more in order to come closer to the overall average so your application would be more solidly competitive even if future admissions scores increase. Now, I don't know you personally, so it's hard for me to make any suggestions as to what you're most able to improve. However, I would offer the following: - Grades: If you feel you're capable of getting the high 80s necessary to improve your overall grades, it definitely would help a bit.
- MCAT: Apart from the quite low writing score of M, your MCAT score of 26 is approximately right on the average for the past six years for admitted students (26.22Q), and considering most people's distaste for the MCAT, this likely wouldn't be my primary focus for improvement. Nevertheless, as they only look as your best score, keep in mind that it only has the potential to improve your application.
- Interview: You've already proven from the previous year that you are capable of a higher interview score (i.e., last year's 76 versus this year's 71.6), so this is a definite area I think you should put a good amount of effort into improving. From my own experience, and if you consider the improvements made by other posters, the interview is an area where essentially all applicants have notable room for improvement (e.g., both JayBG and Guest11111111 had large improvements between their first and second applications' interviews, with interview score increases of 12 points and 22 points, respectively, thus showing that significant interview improvements are definitely possible). A lot of people have already posted (in this thread and many others) about ways of improving one's MMI performance, so be sure to check those out.
My weakest part of the application right now would have to be my experience. I was a gunner child who decided at 5 years old to be a vet and began job shadowing and volunteering at 12 years old. As a 13 year old I job shadowed and was able to observe a few notable surgeries, and was offered a job. I started working at a vet clinic at 13 and worked there for 4 years. This experience is upwards of 2500 hours but was so long ago (2006 - 2010) that I am unsure of how much the admissions committee will like it. But since then I have only gotten little smatterings of volunteering (milking a goat, foal watch a few shifts) and only one other clinic for a few months (100 hours last year). I also volunteered at a pet store at 14 years old for around 200 hours. So I guess my question is, how far back in time should you put things on your BIF? Is there any kind of limit? First off, maybe it's just my age showing, but 2006 does not seem like that long ago... Seriously though: In looking over the admissions pages, there appears to be no explicitly stated limit for how far back the experience you claim can be. Personally, I think the 2006-2010 experience would be just fine (especially as it was of such a notable quality and quantity), and the same for the pet store experience (which appears to be from about the same time period). Especially now that the BIF is online, there is plenty of space for entries, so I would think there would be no reason to leave out these experiences. HOWEVER, as you have already identified, your experience is definitely a big weakness, and I would completely agree. While the aforementioned experiences can be included, you really should not simply rely on them, but instead really do need to get some more recent veterinary and animal experience to have a solid application. What I believe they are looking for is a good mix of especially quality experiences, in a variety of different fields (i.e., I think a high quality placement for a relatively shorter period of time can definitely be better than a lot of time spent at a placement that offers little meaningful experience). You also need to consider how this would affect your DVM references if you are considering using those from the 2006-2010 experience, as it may be less powerful of a reference if you haven't meaningfully worked closely with the person for several years. For example, when I applied for 2011 entry I also had relatively older veterinary and animal experiences that dated back to 2002-2003 (i.e., ~8 years prior, but at a small/wildlife/avian/exotics placement that was of significant quality, quantity, and variety), BUT also had experience in between and all the way up to the summer before (i.e., an equine vet clinic placement over the summer of 2010, which was also of significant quality and quantity). This year was my first time applying, was offered an interview but, unfortunately I did not get accepted. I was thinking whether I should rewrite my MCAT. Starting this year the new MCAT eliminated the writing section so I'm not sure how they would determine the highest MCAT score. My question is should I write the MCAT again? Does anyone know if they will still look at the writing score from the old MCATs or just completely ignore the writing component from now on? Or how would it work? My VR was the lowest, my other sections were decent and a pretty good letter score for the writing. I feel like if they do not look at the writing anymore, it will be a disadvantage to me. According to a previous post responded to by Ms. Lowenger, they will be posting details to the admissions web site this fall as to how the changes with the MCAT will be handled. Now, just my own wild, unsupported reasonings here, but it seems like it would be difficult for them to work in continuing to use the writing scores from previous MCATs considering it would seemingly make it quite difficult to fairly compare it to the new MCAT without the writing score. Personally, my own (again, wild, completely unsupported, and thus relatively meaningless) guess would be that they would have to drop the writing score to make the MCATs equivalent and comparable across the board. However, to get the real and definitive answer to this you will apparently have to wait until this fall. In the meantime, with that said and even considering most people's notable distaste for the MCAT, since they only look as your best score, keep in mind that rewriting only has the potential to improve your overall application. You haven't given any numbers, so it's hard to make a solid judgement on room for improvement, but unless you did incredibly well I would seriously consider rewriting, even just for the potential benefit of somewhat increasing your scores for your second application (especially since you yourself identified a relatively low score in the VR section, which is one of the sections that will count in any case). If you had the marks and the MCAT score to get an interview this year I would think that they are fine. Perhaps you would be better off improving your interview skills? Do keep in mind that being selected for an interview only means one ranks somewhere in the top 200, and after the interview the academic side of things still counts for 65% of the final admission score. Furthermore, the lower one's marks and MCAT are relative to other applicants, the lower their initial rank and, thus, the more necessary it could become to have a very good to exceptional interview in order to be admitted, and vice versa (e.g., the applicant initially ranked 190th might need an exceptional interview to be admitted, while the applicant initially ranked 50th could likely be admitted on a slightly below average interview). HOWEVER, I too would suggest all applicants (both unsuccessfuls and first-timers) put in a solid effort to improve and maximize their interview performance, as I think very nearly all applicants have notable room for improvement in their interview abilities.
I seem to keep redefining my idea of tl;dr, so here's TWO giraffes ;D:
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Post by JDorothy on Jul 5, 2013 16:02:18 GMT -5
Thank you dreizehn! Can always count on you for a high quality response in terms of helpful advise and expertise! I am definitely putting in full effort to buff up my BIF, and just started up at another veterinary clinic
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Post by guest658254 on Jul 6, 2013 19:02:38 GMT -5
Hey guys, Just wondering what the Rollins book you guys are talking about is? Could someone tell me the complete name? I applied this year and didn't get an interview, however my averages have both improved with my last semester and I hope to get an interview next year, and am really hoping to ace it so any other books/tools you can think of to help me prepare please let me know. Thanks!
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Post by dreizehn on Jul 6, 2013 19:54:38 GMT -5
The book is An Introduction to Veterinary Medical Ethics: Theory and Cases, by Bernard E. Rollin.
I don't have any experience with it myself, but I've heard good things in general from some other people.
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Post by guest 658253 on Jul 6, 2013 21:39:37 GMT -5
Thank you very much!
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Post by Guest028 on Jul 12, 2013 16:39:34 GMT -5
This was my first year applying and I'm looking for ways to improve for the next round as I was not admitted.
Pre-requistites average: 88% Last two semesters: 88% MCAT: 28Q
Work experience: Solo vet assistant in a single vet clinic- running the reception, all client interaction, pre- & post- operative care, scrubbed in during all surgeries, etc.
Clinic volunteering: 2 small animal clinics, 1 large animal (horses, cows, sheep, goats, etc), 1 wildlife (moose, bears, wolves, etc.)
Other animal experience: Exotics handler for educational shows & therapy programs, wildlife rehabilitation (bottle feeding moose, racoons, etc), groomer/therapeutic horseback riding volunteer, breeding assistant & translator overseas, international level dog show handler, service dog training
Non-animal related: 5 sports teams, tutoring science at high school & university level, outdoor camp counsellor
My interview score was 59. I have the Rollins book, went over all the position statements and have come across many of the scenarios at my time in clinics. After doing the interview I'm not quite sure how I would change any of my answers and had practiced many times with admitted vet and med students. My job also requires me to deal with a lot of difficult clients so I have a lot of experience in dealing with those situations that helped me develop strong communication skills.
I'm just wondering if anyone has ideas what I could do to better my application? Should I consider bettering my academics? Or should I just add more experience? How can I specifically improve my interview since I got such a low score? Thanks!
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Post by ovc2017 on Jul 12, 2013 17:54:07 GMT -5
Hi, I was very surprised you didn't get in until I saw your interview score. I think your marks and MCAT are good, and it was your interview that held you back. How did you structure your responses? Did you make sure to discuss all the stakeholders and different out comes?
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Post by Guest028 on Jul 12, 2013 19:35:39 GMT -5
I definitely need to improve my interview score, I just unfortunately don't exactly know how to go about that. I discussed alternatives to measures (if applicable); how the pet, client, vet, clinic & community are affected with each decision; chose the best outcome/decision; and then related to either a specific experience I've had or what the implications & importance of solving that scenario correctly are.
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Post by dreizehn on Jul 15, 2013 7:05:14 GMT -5
This was my first year applying and I'm looking for ways to improve for the next round as I was not admitted. Pre-requistites average: 88% Last two semesters: 88% MCAT: 28Q Work experience: Solo vet assistant in a single vet clinic- running the reception, all client interaction, pre- & post- operative care, scrubbed in during all surgeries, etc. Clinic volunteering: 2 small animal clinics, 1 large animal (horses, cows, sheep, goats, etc), 1 wildlife (moose, bears, wolves, etc.) Other animal experience: Exotics handler for educational shows & therapy programs, wildlife rehabilitation (bottle feeding moose, racoons, etc), groomer/therapeutic horseback riding volunteer, breeding assistant & translator overseas, international level dog show handler, service dog training Non-animal related: 5 sports teams, tutoring science at high school & university level, outdoor camp counsellor My interview score was 59. I have the Rollins book, went over all the position statements and have come across many of the scenarios at my time in clinics. After doing the interview I'm not quite sure how I would change any of my answers and had practiced many times with admitted vet and med students. My job also requires me to deal with a lot of difficult clients so I have a lot of experience in dealing with those situations that helped me develop strong communication skills. I'm just wondering if anyone has ideas what I could do to better my application? Should I consider bettering my academics? Or should I just add more experience? How can I specifically improve my interview since I got such a low score? Thanks! I'd fully agree with ovc2017 that your marks and MCAT are good, and are definitely in the right area for admissions (indeed, they're both above the averages for admitted students over the past few years). Improving one's grades is always an option and never hurts, but, already being in the high 80s, I just think it would take a fairly large amount of effort to get a meaningful improvement. While I don't know the number of hours at each placement, your experience seems to be quite diverse, well-rounded, and of high quality, so, beyond maintaining some over the next year, there's not much room for improvement in that area. As you yourself seem to already be well aware, your interview score is the primary weakness so, if I were you, that would be where I would focus my efforts. Going though some quick calculations as above but using the values you have given, your final admissions score for this year was ~74.91. Keeping in mind the cutoff for admission this year was approximately 77.02, and all others things remaining the same, for you to have been admitted this year either your overall grades (i.e., both the prerequisites and last two semesters) would have had to average out at ~92.5% (an increase of 4.5% overall, for a final admissions score of 77.25), or you would have needed an interview score of about 65.5 or higher (an increase of 6.5 points, for a final admissions score of 77.19). Now, an interview score of 59 isn't terrible and you're not incredibly far off the average, it's just a fair bit low to be competitive when the average for admitted students is generally mid-70s, indicating things just didn't fully come together to the level necessary, and you didn't do as well as you perhaps thought you did. If you soundly believe you covered all the aspects as you have said you did, then maybe it was more the WAY in which you presented everything? Keep in mind that, per the admissions web site, communication skills are evaluated at every station, so they are highly important. Or maybe things were just a little too superficial and more depth was necessary. Or perhaps something about the real MMI process itself and/or your nerves on that day altered how you came across as compared to your practice sessions. Or one of many other possibilities... As for improving your interview score though: you already seem to have employed many of the ideas previously posted to help improve interview performance, so you're already on the right track, and just need to keep this up to help continue improving for next year. If you're in the Guelph area, you might also consider doing the mock MMIs to gain further experience with the MMI process in a structured setting very similar to the real things. In addition to practicing with others, if you have not already done so you may want to consider taping these sessions and watching them later yourself. Watching yourself can be brutal at times, but can also be a very effective means of picking up on little habits or means of communication that are undesirable, and which may not have been brought up before (also, I think most people are harder on themselves than others are, so it's a good means of making sure you catch everything). Finally, it's not really an active means of improvement, but having now gone through the process once for real should be helpful for the next time around, as I think most people do manage to improve their interview performance on subsequent attempts.
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Post by Guest028 on Jul 16, 2013 17:22:04 GMT -5
Thank you for the reply, I'll give that a try.
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Post by Guest4300 on Aug 21, 2013 6:51:15 GMT -5
Is there way to find out the range of final calculated scores for the last three years for accepted applicants the cohort stats are great but I the calculated admission stats I found are a better comparison.
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Post by dreizehn on Aug 22, 2013 2:55:18 GMT -5
Is there way to find out the range of final calculated scores for the last three years for accepted applicants the cohort stats are great but I the calculated admission stats I found are a better comparison. Unfortunately, I think the best you'll get with the stats currently made available are the average calculated final admission scores for each year (summarized in my aforementioned spreadsheet). With the information as given in the publicly published stats for admitted students, there's no way of determining for certain the lowest or highest combination of grades, MCAT score, and interview score that got admitted, and, thus, no way of determining the range of calculated final scores (i.e., only the low-to-high ranges for the different sections are given, not how they are related for individual students). However, from the previous posts above, it's also known that the lowest admitted value for the class of 2017 was approximately 77.02, which is 2.93 points below the average calculated final score for 2017 (79.95). Using this, you could then very roughly estimate the lowest admitted value for previous classes (yeah, 2017 gives just one point of data to work off of so it may not be overly reliable, but it's all that's available at the moment). Doing so would yield very rough estimates of low end final calculated admission scores for the past three years of 77.02, 76.50, and 77.08 (for the classes of 2017, 2016, and 2015, respectively). Keep in mind though that the magnitude of the ranges and the stats overall differ from class to class so, again, I wouldn't put too much stock in these estimates.
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Post by gust324 on Oct 22, 2013 16:17:52 GMT -5
"Excepting this most recent cycle (class of 2017) since their stats are not yet posted, over the past six years the final score for admitted students has averaged 80.74. Looking into it a bit further, one notes that the average interview score pre-MMI format was a decent bit higher at about 87.5%, while in the past three years with the MMIs it has averaged lower at about 75%; thus, a more representative average value for the final calculated score being currently considered is just for the past three years, for which it is 79.39."
Do you know anything regarding the average score for getting those who received an interview?
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Post by dreizehn on Oct 22, 2013 17:47:35 GMT -5
Excepting this most recent cycle (class of 2017) since their stats are not yet posted, over the past six years the final score for admitted students has averaged 80.74. Looking into it a bit further, one notes that the average interview score pre-MMI format was a decent bit higher at about 87.5%, while in the past three years with the MMIs it has averaged lower at about 75%; thus, a more representative average value for the final calculated score being currently considered is just for the past three years, for which it is 79.39. Do you know anything regarding the average score for getting those who received an interview? Unfortunately, they post the mean, median, and range of marks, MCAT scores, and interview scores of admitted students only, with no further breakdown publicly available. At present, the links to these individual files of stats from past admission cycles are available at the bottom of the Selection Process page.
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Post by 786786 on Feb 15, 2014 4:59:46 GMT -5
Hi,
I was just wondering if someone could put up an updated version of the average calculator that takes into account the new MCAT scoring?
Thanks
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Post by 487594759874 on Feb 20, 2014 19:47:36 GMT -5
MCAT is still worth 20%... So instead of being out of 56 to include the old writing sample, I assume now it would be out of 45.
Old calculation for a 30P MCAT: 30+7(J-T is 1-11, so P would be 7)=37/56=66%, meaning 13.21% out of the possible 20% used to calculate in the admissions average.
New calculation for a 30P MCAT: 30/45 (15 for VR, 15 for PS, 15 for BS)=66.66%, meaning 13.32% out of the possible 20% used to calculate the admissions average.
Hope this helps!
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